Cam Timing Help - Please

[chrisu]

also the same for the proper square cam cover Z1000s as well..........

Proper ? Square Cam cover ?

Surely Chris, not in the same sentence

jealous..............

[chrisu]

Thanks Steven, I think reading the above I now have bent valves. Not sure this is a job for my small brain. I followed the book when adjusting the tensioner and seemed to have screwed it up. Does anyone fancy a trip down to Spain and give Me a hand?

I hate to say this but I think you are going to need 'onsite' assistance. even if you take the head off and get someone to remove valves, check, replace as necessary It sounds like you'll still need help to put it back together properly.

Unfortunately without pulling it apart its difficult to guess how many valves you need of if you've been lucky.

Debbens do stainless steel ones - cheaper than the originals too.

[floydsz1]

Was wondering if firing the engine up when the inlet cam is on the 27th pin instead of the 28th would damage the valves. Thats what i did to mine,
Feel stupid as iv'e rebuilt these engines many times over the years, seems to run ok now though. was just noisy when it was on the 27th one.

[bigmac103]

Well I'll say again is anyone willing to come down and help me? At my expense of course. Food is great and the wine and cervesa is superb. I use the bike for work so i am F**ked without it.

[Al]

knut
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:32 am Post subject:
hi,i was checking my cam/timing yesterday ,and it looks like my inlet sprocket is 1 tooth of place ,in a clockwise direction,at least thats what i think,should the cam arrow line up directly with the cylinder surface ? i,ll try and post a pic of it tonight ,another question , would that explain 1 & 2 cylinders running rich and 3 & 4 lean ? Question
thanks guys

Knut, if a cam shaft is advanced or retarded it will advance or retard all four valves on that cam by the same amount.
Rich on 1 and 2 / lean on 3 and 4 is carb related.

Chrisu; do you have the accompanying text for that diagram because for the un-initiated it looks as if the engine is turning backwards. Could be a problem if someone were to do this. I am going to guess that it says that this is the direction in which you take up the slack not the direction to turn the motor!!!
Had a look in the 900 and Z1 books and they didnt have the arrows on them!!!!

bigmac103; if you do have to take the head off, check with the pistons at top dead centre, that the timing mark 'T' for TDC is correctly indexed to the static mark on the inner cover. Having said that i bet its' the last thing on your mind at the moment.

Good luck with the motor.



AL

[bigmac103]

I'm not an experienced engineer, and this is beyond my skill level, i found the diagram very difficult to apply to the actual engine markings, Basically i need help, big time.

[bigmac103]

I'm going to have to take the head off and see how much damage i've done, how do you cope with disconnecting the cam chain and reinstalling the chain? Help!
In worse case what parts would i need to get. Dave at ZPower has been extremely helpful but i need to let him know what's required. Trouble is I'm working and time is short so I'm thinking just order for the worse case scenario.

[Al]

bigmac103 Do you have access to a workshop manual. If not download one and read the appropriate sections.
With the engine in front of you it shouldnt take long to figure out whether you feel you might make a fatal mistake based on what you have read and what you are looking at before you.

On the subject of ordering spares; it is unlikely that you will get it all in one go. Reason for example; if fitting new valves you will then have to calculate what new shims you need. Not possible to do this in one hit from a parts list.

How much load did you put on the cam chain to get it to rotate eventually?
Is it possible that in rotating the engine backwards that you have overlapped a couple of links say at the bottom of the crank sprocket and that the valves haven't contacted the pistons at all?

A simple check that you could make is to measure the valve clearances before you take it down.
If any of the valves are bent they may show up as very large clearances. If all measure up OK then there is a better than average chance that they are OK.

If you re-set the valve timing correctly would it run or at least spin on the starter?
If so a compression test would show up any irregularities.
You dont need to run the engine as such just use the starter to turn it over.
All plugs out, fuel off, ignition wires to coils disconnected, carbs fully open, get ready to count fast, spin 'till it reaches it's maximum on the gauge, having counted the number of turns to get to this figure use the same number of engine revolutions for the other cylinders.
Within 10% is acceptable compression pressure across all cylinders and compression pressure value nominally, is noted in the manual.

You could do a visual check by removing the exhaust and carbs. Rotate engine slowly untill a valve is fully closed. ie. cam lobe not contacting valve gear. Spray WD40 or ordinary engine oil into the inlet and exhaust port and wait to see how long it takes to drain away. This is a comparative test because it is also dependent on the condition of the valve seats and valve head mating surfaces. However if one or more are visually not seated or if they drain away immediately then that will give an indication as to their condition.

I've also had some results shining a maglight through the sp hole and looking into the outside of the ports. Needs to be done in a dark dingy place though. Luckily my garage is just like that!

Another little dodge that i have used successfully in the past is to pressurise the cylinder.
Smash the porcelain out of a spark plug. Mig weld a pcl connector (air line standard connector) to the upper edge of the plug body. Piston to top dead centre on ignition stroke for that cyl (both valves closed or as much as they will) Plug air line into compressor via a regulator (must be very low pressure) and observe the result. It will be obvious if any valves are leaking or not seating.
Needless to say; high pressure will spin the motor!! Not necessarily good at this stage.




bigmac103 i shouldnt really offer the services of other people but didn't Bedlow say he gets down that way occassionally???

Failing that start your own topic in projects and we'll talk you through it. There i go again, offering other peoples help.

What i meant was i'll do my best to help if you DIY.


AL

[bigmac103]

Thanks Al, thats really helpful. I'm using a Horse box as a garage so the dark and dingy criteria I do have. I think I am going to have to get help before I make it worse, but I will try the things you've mentioned to get some idea what is exactly is wrong.
Bill

[chrisu]

this may help...............

ok - I'll try and put some words to this diagram. Do all this fitting from the right side (timing) of the engine. This assumes its ready for reassembly - al valves/guides/seals etc correct.

Firstly I've assumed all cams, top guide and tensioner are off so you've got a slack chain on a bit of wire to stop it falling down into the engine.

Set the timing to the T1:4 mark - as per diagram.

Then ensure the chain is on the crank spocket and pull so there is no slack at the front - not so hard you move the timing.

fit the front camshaft - the exhaust one - it should be obvious which way round as the tacho drive is nearest the right side of the engine.

Make sure it lines up as per the diagram - feel free to put a tiny blob of white paint in the right place to assist you.

Now fit the rear camshaft - you will see a make on the cam - this is where the 28th pin goes. Count front the timing mark on the exhaust cam back to the 28th pin. Adjust until correct.

now bolt down the 4 cam caps to the right torque setting.

now fit the top guide roller

now fit the tensioner at the back and slacken off the bolt to allow it to engage. Make it was pushed all the way back in and locked off before trying to fit.

double check everything still lines up.

now and only now slowly (using a 17mm spanner) rotate the engine 360 degrees back to the T1:4 mark.

check it all still lines up - if it does then you're ok to finalise reassembly if not you'll need to start again.

we'll be taking the head off BunnyZs Z1A over christmas so I may well do a step by step photo guide as we do that. - probably not going to help you in the short term.

Hopefully someone can spare the time to visit.....

[bigmac103]

My problem is the camshafts are bolted in place, should I unbolt them?

B

[chrisu]

you have a pm.

[Pigford]

bigmac103, cams need to be undone so you can get the cam chain clear.... but don't drop it into the tunnel

Take loads of photo's if you can.... will help when putting it all back together

[Pigford]

PS- did you try turning engine; plugs out; thumb over plug holes to check for compression.
One tooth out probably won't damage anything

[bigmac103]

Yes I did. I also took Rich's advice and looked at the pistons and they are marked. Plus I don't feeler gauges to measure the gap between cam and shim, my finger fits!!!!!!

I think I've found a motorcycle engineer over here who might be able help me. I would of liked to have had a go at fixing it myself but I think I need an experienced eye overseeing that I don't f**k this one up!

Trouble is still I still feel that I did what was correct in the first place. I slackened off the bolt on the cam tensioner, rotated the engine so all the slack was taken up then retightened the nut! Then ended up in this situation.