Camshaft / shim gaps, noisy?

z1bman · #31 PostAuthor: **z1bman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:08 am

just replacing things for the sake of it aint going to cure the problem you need to remove the head & inspect it properly especially the exhaust guides as they get hotter than the inlets which are cooled by fuel & air going into the cylinder use some plasti gauge to check the clearance on the camshaft bearings

warren3200gt · #32 PostAuthor: **warren3200gt** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:11 am

Ok, putting new buckets on the exhaust valves definetly stopped the rattle previously. After no more than half an hour running in 5 min sessions I can hear the same rattle returning, although not as loud yet.
With the bike on the centre stand when I take the cam cover off buckets 1 and 2 exhaust have a pool of oil around them but 3 and 4 don,t. So when I oiled up and replaced all the exhaust buckets it may have been the oil that resolved the rattle and not the new buckets?
I'll take the cam cover off and run the engine to see if I can see a difference in the amount of oil coming from the bearings. If I can, I'll oil 3 and 4 exhaust buckets and run again to see if the rattle goes. If that resolves the rattle it must be oil related.

zed1015 · #33 PostAuthor: **zed1015** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:20 am

If there's no sign of oil around 3 and 4 (with the bike running on the main stand ) i would pull the head and flush out the cross drilling and the cam feeds.
Even once they are cleared you may still have some slight rattle if the bucket bores are worn but that won't do any harm.

z1bman · #34 PostAuthor: **z1bman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:39 pm

have you spun the engine over with the cam cover off ? if you do this for about 1 minute the cam buckets should be flooded in oil & should be pouring out of the side of the cam bearings. did your engine builder use any type of gasket sealer on the cylinder base or head gasket you could have some sealer blocking the oil from getting up through the cylinder studs

warren3200gt · #35 PostAuthor: **warren3200gt** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:48 pm

Okay, some further investigation with the cam cover off.
This is a photo of the original buckets I replaced. Does this look like "normal" for exhaust buckets? left to right 1 to 4

Take the cam cover off and slide a bit of white card across the header pipes and up over the jockey wheel. Primarily to contain some of the mess but as a bonus it gave me a pic to post. The top of the pic is the edge that was on the exhaust header pipes so kinda looks like my markings are back to front but their not.
Before starting the engine buckets 1 and 2 had pools of oil around them. 3 and 4 didn't.

As can be seen 1 and 2 threw oil out as did the cam chain and to a lesser extent the rev drive. 3 and 4 didn't throw anything anywhere. The rattle was evident. Added some oil to no 4 bucket from a syringe and the rattle diminished and 4 threw oil out.
I didn't add any oil to 3 as can be seen.

It would appear I have a blocked oil way to 3 and 4 cam bearing. Agree?

warren3200gt · #36 PostAuthor: **warren3200gt** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:55 pm

z1bman wrote:have you spun the engine over with the cam cover off ? if you do this for about 1 minute the cam buckets should be flooded in oil & should be pouring out of the side of the cam bearings. did your engine builder use any type of gasket sealer on the cylinder base or head gasket you could have some sealer blocking the oil from getting up through the cylinder studs

I don't know what he did. It was all done before I got hold off the bike. I'm trying to get it back in order. He was one of the guys I contacted and sent the audio link to previously mentioned. The way he jumped at the cam buckets as an explanation for the rattle made me think he knew more than he was letting on.
I don't see any benefit in asking him as his loyalties lie with the dealer who pays him.

z1bman · #37 PostAuthor: **z1bman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:05 pm

certainly looks that way. it could be a piece of broken valve seal obstructing the oil gallery if the old seals where hard when they where replace they sometimes break up when you try to remove them. if you do remove the head spin the engine over to make sure you have a good flow of oil coming up from the pump

warren3200gt · #38 PostAuthor: **warren3200gt** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:27 pm

Z1bman and all, thanks for your input. When I take the head off and turn the motor over how can I disengage the cam chain. Will it just lie out the way off the crank?
ps, Also noticed from your profile your an angler. I'm a carp and barbel man myself.

wilsonsjw11 · #39 PostAuthor: **wilsonsjw11** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:07 pm

Warren,
Keep yer head down you know Kent carpers are not liked around the rest of the country :lol:

They weren't when I was chasing carp around Kent in the late 70/80s
Regards
Steve

kev edwards · #40 PostAuthor: **kev edwards** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:46 pm

warren3200gt wrote:Z1bman and all, thanks for your input. When I take the head off and turn the motor over how can I disengage the cam chain. Will it just lie out the way off the crank?
ps, Also noticed from your profile your an angler. I'm a carp and barbel man myself.

Don't spin it over with the head off, if you are not careful you will end up with even more damage.

z1bman · #41 PostAuthor: **z1bman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:55 pm

you will need to pull the chain up between the frame tubes & put a screwdriver under the chain to keep it tight as you spin the engine over. there is a gallery at the bottom of the cam bucket hole this is not an oil feed it just allows the oil to drain back in to the engine. the buckets get lubricated from the oil leaking out the gap between the camshaft journals & this fills the recess where the cam buckets are located.

yes i also do some carp & barbel fishing myself but only been barbel fishing a couple of times in the last few years as you know you can spend a couple of days fishing on the river without getting a sniff

warren3200gt · #42 PostAuthor: **warren3200gt** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:16 pm

This is starting to diversify into a fishing forum!

wilsonsjw11, that's just because they are all jealous of us Kent carpers !
Been carping since the 70's myself. ps "French" fish don't count.

Kev, thanks for the offer, only if you have time though mate, don't want your missus giving me grief. I'll take it apart tomorrow if you fancy dirty fingernails.

z1bman, Is there another way to check oil is getting as far as the top of the cylinders? Not keen on turning it over on the starter with the cam chain still rotating.
As far as Barbel fishing goes, your obviously fishing the wrong rivers. I normally get 2 or 3 chances in 4 or 5 hours fishing the Medway. Every one a double. It's the same stretch Pete Woodhouse had the record from at 16.5 lb some years ago.

zed1015 · #43 PostAuthor: **zed1015** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:27 pm

warren3200gt wrote:Okay, some further investigation with the cam cover off.
This is a photo of the original buckets I replaced. Does this look like "normal" for exhaust buckets? left to right 1 to 4

As far as heat discolouration goes those buckets look normal.

warren3200gt · #44 PostAuthor: **warren3200gt** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:59 pm

Really? They looked totally shot to me.

zed1015 · #45 PostAuthor: **zed1015** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:47 pm

The brownish heat/oil discolouration band around the middle is normal with the upper and lower portions being kept "natural" due to the buckets rocking in the bores.
Blueing of the buckets would indicate excessive heat and increased risk of seizure.
However the two left hand buckets appear to be scuffed and rougher looking which I presume are from the side that is being restricted of oil.
I would guess that those buckets do have some oil getting through as no lubrication at all would have seized the buckets, wrecked the shells and scored the cam lobes within a minute or so of running.

Camshaft / shim gaps, noisy?

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