Z1OwnersClub GB

So I have a Zed wheel that has a decent rim, but spokes are well rusty

Can I just get a new set of spokes & replace them all, 1 x spoke at a time to save having to do a total (from scratch) rebuild

If not - why not

Mark, i dont know the answer but,
Is the wheel staight and true?
If so, how can you 'guarantee' the correct 'torque' on each spoke as it was???
Just a puzzler for you pigford
cheers freddy

I didn't think it would be much of a challenge , i was wrong
I had a true running wheel with some loose spokes , by the time i'd tightened all the spokes to
what i thought to be a uniform tightness the wheel runs out from side to side ,
Any amount of arsing that i've done to try and correct it hasn't worked .
It's clearly black magic and way beyond me .

As the saying goes ' if you think you understand quantum physics then you probably don't '

Mark, I build pushbike wheels as part of my job. Never done a mbike wheel tho.
I would give it a go, what have you to lose if you fail? If you build it right, you could have a builder just do the truing for you. While the spokes are out check the hub flange for fretting and damage. If the chrome is bad, you might be better replacing the rim as they do not recommend dechroming/rechroming as the polishing up prior to rechrome reduces the strength of the wheel if badly rusted.
If the nipples still turn, I would start by slackening them all, gradually as using the bolt cutter method will send stresses to one side of the rim and distort it (well it does on alloy pushbike rims). A steel m/bike rim will be stronger, but use best practice.
Once all the spokes are loose and rattle a bit, you could start replacing the spokes, look out for different length spokes, some wheels are assymetrical and have longer spokes on one side to dish the wheel.
A good tip is to get all the new spokes in and then tighten to where the threads are just level with where they go in the nipple.
You will then need a truing stand or make one where you can spin the wheel to check for radial and lateral runout.
Plenty of info on the interweb about this, also having a spoke key that fits your nipples (oh err) helps.
Also make sure you weave the spokes the correct way, for example on a 3 cross pushbike wheel a spoke may pass either under or over the spokes it crosses. Take pictures close up. Crofty

Re the spoke tension, we use a tensiometer which measures the flex in the spoke being tested, they will never all be the same as the rim varies in strength around its circumfrence, ie where it has been welded at the joint and manufacturing variations. Obvious will be a spoke that has no tension on it, we check all our wheels on new bikes where the factory use robots to build the wheels and we find them to vary from near perfect to unacceptable with the odd finger tight spoke.

Hmmm, some interesting points

Ayup crofty, just read your reply. You obviously have experience and knowledge on these matters.
So, presuming a wheel was straight and true. Could you just replace 1 spoke at a time?completely removing 1 spoke and replacing it, like for like?
Isn't it true that the tightening the spokes 'pulls in' the rim, which will either straighten or distort the wheel?
Sorry if these are daft questions, but I do find it interesting and I have actually no knowledge on these matters.
cheers freddy

I saw my Grandfather (Hacker Light - Pigford may have heard of him) build up a motorcycle wheel once. He did it all by hand, with no torque measurement, and got it spot on, first try.

I can't remember much about it, but I do remember being mightily impressed by it.

Richard

Its easier if you think of the spoke as a bolt and the nipple as the nut (which they are really). Tighten a spoke on the rh side of the bike will pull the rim to the right at that point, it will also pull the rim slightly down there as well. Best to get the radial alignment (up and down) close first then worry about the runout laterally (side to side).
A dot of antiseize on the threads will help as well.

Replacing one spoke should be fairly easy, but going right round and replacing all of them will take longer and likely require more truing as the whole wheel will have undergone tension changes.
As Z1parR found tensioning all the spokes to similar tightness made the wheel out of true, he would of been better tightening the loose spokes a bit, then check trueness, make the correct tighten or slacken of required spoke and check again. Better still replace the spokes and start truing from scratch after screwing nipples on loose to same amount of thread showing, good quality spokes are made to quite exacting tolerances and have same amount of thread on each one.Cheap chinese spokes maybe worse, never used them, we only use Sapim or DT Swiss ones.

I'm re-spoking my a4 rims, on dismantling it was easier to remove all the nipples and pull the hub off-centre to work the spokes out. Removing the spokes loose on the hub was pretty straight forward.

On a tensioned hub, removing one outer spoke that was on the outside of the crossover would not be too bad, but getting an outside crossover inner out on its own would be near impossible without bending it. I had to curve the inners to get them off the hubs as it was.

I'm attempting the building on my own, as said if it goes wrong there are guys who can true them for a few shackles.

A wheel set of stainless butted spokes and nickel plated brass nipples were £79 from Central Wheel, they had them in stock.(other suppliers are available and may be cheaper)

Give it a go, you've got nothing to loose.

I suppose I could always paint them silver

I didn't think you could replace one without loosening a good few of the others to move the rim to allow it to go over the new spoke.

I have seen it one by bending the spoke till it pops in, but I wouldn't like to trust a wheel done like that when for a few pounds a wheel builder could do it right.

The art of DIY is knowing when not to DIY.

needaz1100r wrote:I didn't think you could replace one without loosening a good few of the others to move the rim to allow it to go over the new spoke.

I have seen it one by bending the spoke till it pops in, but I wouldn't like to trust a wheel done like that when for a few pounds a wheel builder could do it right.

The art of DIY is knowing when not to DIY.

Loosen one off, Cut it with snips, feed new one in and tighten.

What could go wrong, (he says with crossed fingers, legs, toes, arms, etc). Having said that the rims are less likely to distort than bicycle rims which very week

I don't think the new one feeds in, it goes in through the hub from the side, then before you can turn it up towards the rim, it has to be far enough through for the bend to be in the hole in the hub, then it's too far through to go through the hole in the rim.

The fact that the old one won't come out just by taking off the nipple seems to point to that, I think...

for the sake of spending £25- £30 it not worth the grief