Petrol survey

[Al]

I had good reason to drain the fuel from the bike on the weekend (several times) see 'Dyna green coils' topic hereabouts.

It was not clear as it used to be but milky in appearance.
Bit like lemon juice.
When left to settle it definitely had a clear layer over a milky layer and i understand that there should be about 5% insoluble ethanol in many modern fuels which does separate.
However this was like 70 % milky stuff and maybe 25% clear fuel (petrol??) above it.

Petrol was from a Shell garage and not the crap from supermarket stations.

Anyone seen anything similar or even different.
Maybe i was just unlucky and got a bad load of fuel from the bottom of the tank!

AL

[DavidZ1R]

Yes I have posted about this subject before, you will see little blobs forming after a short while, and yes it does 'cloud', I have started using Esso premium unleaded which is supposed to be free of the ethanol, couldn't swear to it but the petrol tap on my Z1R turns nice and smoothly, where as before I had to take it apart every year to free it up.

[jphaynes669]

AL, a while back I experimented with different fuels in jam jars....all from different suppliers.....some air tight sealed.. some left open ...and some left under a standard jam pot lid...
Over days the one left open went cloudy and after a week or so began to seperate.
The covered jars all went this way but over longer periods.......But.....
In a seperate jar I had shell v power.....which I treated with fuel stabilser....this sample didnt
Change at all even after several weeks.....
I have discovered that shell fuels may well contain ethanol...and it is reported that esso premium contains none......so I did a test....shell v power in a jar and esso in a jar....both treated with fuel stabilser. After a month I couldnt see any difference.....and both fuels were used in a mower with no ill effects. ......
Since then ive always used a fuel stabilser throughout the year and have had no issues with fuel.
I occasionally run fuel conditioners in the systems too.

[wheelysteve]

Which fuel stabiliser do you use?

[BykerBoy]

I run all my bikes on super unleaded and have no problems when using them regularly, however when I lay them up for the winter I have had problems in the past so for the last three years I have used Briggs and Stratton fuel fit and it works. £2.99 for enough to treat two gallons of petrol.
Last year the only bike I didn't treat was my S3 all the rest of the bikes were fine but the pic below shows what happened to the fuel tap rubber on the S3. The holes in the rubber are supposed to be the same size as the ones in the tap.

[dave cullen]

Shell V power DOES have ethanol in it, (I think I posted a reply previously from Shell on the subject);
Briggs and Stratton stuff good, cheap and easily available, but (and I know im sounding like a rep for them) drain your tank, bung the old fuel in your lawnmower or whatever and put a gallon of aspen fuel in the bike, quick fire up, end of worries

[ADRIAN H]

All the large Petrol companies have varying amounts of Ethanol in both unleaded and super unleade.

BP was the last large petrol company to add Ethanol into BP Ultimate.

Total Excellium (high octane), I have been told does not contain Ethanol. (but I can not guarantee this). Which is what I use, but I also add a fuel stabiliser to be on the safe side.

[jphaynes669]

Which fuel stabiliser do you use?

Ive been using putoline fuel stabiliser for the last few winters....follow the instructions and theres no dramas. Come the spring use the conditioner for the first couple of tanks and its job done until next winter. You can use it all year... it wont hurt anything...but your running on fresh gas all the time.

[Al]

My nearest and the next one i think are Shell. (used to be Texaco's but changed hands).
I could see myself becoming a travelling chemist.
Diesel for the van from here, petrol for bike there, fuel stabiliser over that place and conditioners from somewhere else and i havnt got to the AVGAS part yet.
Maybe i'll just get some Sunoco delivered. I bet that is what the race teams are using!!!!
I have just sterilised an old demijohn and will put the 15 liters i have through it around the weekend and see what it looks like and if it settles; what percentage is gunge.

My thoughts are that; with a possibly below par coil and flakey fuel the combination was the cause. Not had a single issue in three years (about twenty+ trackdays now) so cant complain really.

Because of the way that RS flatslides are plumbed** and the fact that the ethanol (milky phase in the mix as observed) was heavier than the fuel component and that the bike was on the sidestand all weekend leads me to think that the chances were poorer for the number 1 cylinder than that of the number four although they may both be sharing a failing coil!!!

** RS flatslides have the main fuel feed from the tank in the middle between number two and three cylinders.
Crucially though, they have balance pipes at the bottom of the float bowls to maintain an even amount of fuel rapidly in each carb.
If there was a shitty percentage in the mix then it would gravitate toward the LHS!!!!!!!

Thanks for the ideas' and will check back in with what is found or not as the case may be.

AL

[Pigford]

I don't trust those FUEL STABILIZERS(FS).

The fuel will still contain ETHANOL, so the FS will just be masking its effects?

Also, FS is yet another chemical which the engine wasn't intended to burn and doesn't need

I always drain my bikes - simples and fool proof

[Al]

Its as if last weekend never happened. I have tried for three days to fault the petrol i have and cant find even a droplet of water. Damnit.
Probably owe Shell an apology. Um no they can eat me.
Cant even duplicate the milky effect in the same plastic aerosol cap i used at Snetterton.
Stumped on this one but have the solution to the miss-fire.
Posted in the Dyna coil thread.

AL

[jphaynes669]

Pigford,
You can trust this one.
Draining the system is ok...but is it drained entirely. ?...
No...traces of fuel still remain to gum up and varnish.
I use this because I run my bikes up thruohout the year....and they are fueled up and ready to go if we get a dry salt free day
Shit ! Ive mentioned road salt.....thats another debate !

[Al]

Spent all day yesterday playing with petrol at work, (long story).
When i did the tests on the Shell i had from Snetterton i did it in a closed container on a warm dry day unlike the conditions at Snetterton.
Yesterday was very damp / humid / rainy and long story short i put Shell, Jet and Tesco seperately in an open pan near to the humid outdoors.
All three went milky within a half hour and all three ended up with 1 or 2%+ water in the bottom.
The pan also became completely covered with water droplets on the outside and underneath.
So ethanol is hygroscopic like brake fluid. Not something i had thought through but this should make it clear and it does explain a lot to me. That said; ethanol is hygroscopic but the compound in which we find it, (ie. petrol) is not, as the definition of hygroscopic says that the water molecules should end up in suspension, either adsorbed or absorbed.
They dont, they then seperate out because of the oily nature of the petrol part of the compound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygroscopy

Because of the temperatures at Snetterton mine and other peoples thought was that the carbs or carb were icing. Something i have seen a lot this week too at work.
I guess that that partially explains what happened to mine although to be strictly accurate it was a failure of the coil tower / spout for number 1 pot but not helped by the fuel situation.
I think my next project will be to; make / buy / find / bodge / include a visible / accessible water trap in the new plumbing downstream of the tank before the carbs.!!!

Anyone know how to remove ethanol from petrol?
Like using kitty litter to remove the red dye from Diesel!


AL

[Pigford]

Al, a water trap will only work if the water is not held in suspension in the fuel.

Me old Z1000 used to spit & fart for the first 5 mins in cold weather (RS36's).

The propensity to carb "icing" is going to be more probably with a higher water content, so that is something to consider - thanks for your report.

[Al]

Water!!

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/2012decethanol.pdf

AL